I interviewed Kay in the living room of her home on April 20th. It was late morning. I recorded the conversation on my phone and transcribed it later, editing it slightly for clarity. As usual, my children were out and about, and they made occasional additions to the conversation, none of which are included in this transcription.
Ben: “When you hear the phrase ‘pursuit of happiness,’ what comes into your mind?”
Kay: “The American dream of – what is it – ‘life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.’ Which [laughs] seems to me like kind of an odd setup for people.”
Ben: “How so?”
Kay: “Well, I think it often gets mistaken for the idea that we have the right to happiness rather than the pursuit of happiness. And I don’t know – is that a worthwhile value? To pursue happiness? It just is kind of a strange phrase–”
“Sure –”
“It’s true that – I mean I think it is kind of what we do, as humans. Whether we call it searching for meaning, contentment – different people’s ideas of what happiness is.”
“What do you think is the cultural definition of happiness in America?”
“I think there’s this idea of a state of mind that’s upbeat and joyful and content – all those things. And that’s – that’s what happiness is supposed to be. And nobody feels that way all the time. Some people never feel that way. So, that’s why I think that it’s – as an ideal, it’s fraught. It’s a setup for depression, and addiction, all that stuff.”
“Is there a moral dimension to happiness? Like – is it more than the satisfaction of desires?”
“Well, I guess I would hope – that makes me think of happiness at the expense of someone else – like the immorality of that. But I guess I’m not sure what you’re going after.”
“Like do you have to be a good person to be happy?”
“Oh, no.” [Sardonic laughter]
“No, you don’t think so. So bad people can be happy?
“Oh yeah.”
“Is that real happiness? Like if all their actions –”
“They think they’re happy –”
“But is it true that you can be happy even you’re deceiving yourself about how you behave and you’re always taking advantage of people? Like is that real happiness or should we say that to be truly happy you have to be living in accordance with some kind of – I don’t know, some kind of moral code?”
“Well, to me the word ‘happiness’ isn’t that serious, or heavy enough to assign morality to. I mean I think an axe murderer could feel happy while doing horrible things to people. That might make them happy – feel happy. I don’t know, I mean –they would feel happy – is that true happiness? Maybe for them it is, I don’t know.”
“So do you think maybe there isn’t a –”
“True happiness?”
“Yeah, so if there’s fake happiness, or a happiness that’s troubling, is there a real kind of happiness? Or is everyone just kind of getting off on their own special thing that they’re into, whether it’s axe murder or crocheting or whatever – is there a true happiness?”
“Well, it’s very individual – what makes me happy is very different than what makes other people – some other people – I think – but as an emotion, it seems fairly universal, you know? When someone is happy, even if there are many different reasons. There also that sense of, what is it – relief. That sense of the opposing, experiencing the opposing – like when you’re sick and then you get better, or when something’s really sad, and then – and then you realize the other side of it.”
__________
Two things stuck out about this interview. The first was Kay’s concern that the widespread veneration of a certain upbeat state of mind has a tendency to create problems – like addiction and depression – for people who don’t see themselves as “measuring up” to the cultural standard of affect. The second was her ambivalence about the moral dimension of happiness, and the noticeable difficulty in disqualifying the kind of happiness experienced by, for example, an axe murderer. No one I’ve interviewed yet, in fact, has verbalized any connection between morality and happiness. This is a bit intriguing, considering the seemingly widespread philosophical interest in reviving the ancient concept of eudaemonia, which elevates the connection between happiness and a life of virtue.
WHAT IS HAPPINESS? 